U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE Office of the Spokesman April 30, 1999

Washington, D.C.

QUESTION: State Department Spokesman James Rubin says a number of women in those refugee camps are reporting they were raped by Serb forces. He joins us now from the State Department. Good morning, Jamie.

RUBIN: Good morning.

Q: Is there strong evidence of Serb soldiers using rape as warfare?

RUBIN: Yes, in a number of accounts that are put together by our investigators and the Tribunal's investigators and others, eyewitnesses or those involved indicated that they were subject to rape.

I have to say, the logic that would create a policy that would allow such brutality was demonstrated so clearly for the whole world to see in that comment by Mr. Seselj. Can you imagine saying that he thought that these people were too ugly to rape? This kind of perverse lack of understanding of human nature and immorality is the logic behind this brutal campaign in Kosovo by one of its leaders. Nothing could be a greater testament to why we're conducting this military operation than those terrible words he spoke.

Q: You mention policy. Judge Louise Arbour is conducting this investigation for the United Nations. Is it likely that her investigation and this evidence might lead a trail to Slobodan Milosevic himself issuing these orders?

RUBIN: Well, later this morning Secretary Albright will be meeting with Judge Arbour. She will be going through the efforts the United States has been making to try to assist the Tribunal in its work, to try to provide intelligence information and other information on a timely basis to the Tribunal.

It is our view that the decision as to whether to indict a specific individual is one that Judge Arbour and the other judges have to make. From our perspective, it's clear that President Milosevic is personally responsible for the policies of these forces, the police forces, the military forces, the paramilitaries like Seselj, who have conducted these terrible war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Whether he is legally responsible and should be indicted is a judgment that we want to leave to the Tribunal to make. We've always taken the policy that it's only for the Tribunal to decide who should be indicted.

Q: All right. Well, moving on to the diplomatic front, Jesse Jackson is in Belgrade. He plans on meeting with Slobodan Milosevic; but the Administration's position is that his meeting to try to release the three US soldiers is undermining NATO's effort to isolate Milosevic. But isn't an effort better than none at all?

RUBIN: Well, what we have said to Jesse Jackson is that we were concerned about his safety; that we were concerned that he would be manipulated. Clearly, this regime will manipulate anyone for its propaganda. That's why they've put these soldiers on television, in violation of the Geneva Convention; that's why they refused access for a month to these soldiers, in violation of the Geneva Convention.

We would be delighted and would welcome it greatly if Jesse Jackson were able to get these soldiers out, but we have no reason to believe that's the case. We were concerned about his safety and the fact that the regime would try to manipulate his mission.

Q: So you don't hold out much optimism for these meetings?

RUBIN: We have no reason to believe that he will get them out. If he does, that will be terrific.

Q: All right. A quick mention here Special Envoy Victor Chernomyrdin is planning also to bring a peace plan to Belgrade to try to work this out. But he's saying that peace cannot go forward unless the bombing stops, at least temporarily. Is that a consideration by NATO?

RUBIN: Not at all. We've made very clear to former Prime Minister Chernomyrdin that until the Serbs have agreed to pull their forces out, to a force with NATO at its core, to stop the killing and to let the refugees back, we're not going to discontinue the bombing.

If they develop a rapid and precise timetable for that withdrawal of their forces and we can demonstrate and it is verified that they've begun that withdrawal, then -- and only then -- would we consider pausing in the bombing. We are very clear on our conditions. They are unchanging; they are not going to change. This is the minimum required for President Slobodan Milosevic to get the bombing to halt.

Q: James Rubin, spokesperson for the State Department, thank you very much for joining us here on "Early Edition."